One a Facebook page, a Calvinist wonders how Calvinism is gnosticism.

Main features of Gnosticism:
-A special elect with secret knowledge.
-An eternal hope in an ascension to a spiritual realm.
-God as Perfect Being theology… immutable and timeless.
-The material world is corruption and cannot be divine (see Calvinist conceptions of the Hypostatic Union).

Grace Family Fellowship asks:

OT argues that absolute sovereignty destroys real relationship since real relationship is predicated on free will. If I am not free to take on the relationship or to reject it then I can have no relationship. The question is, how can a sovereign God really relate to me as a person, if my personhood, by definition, requires absolute freedom. How do human responsibility and divine sovereignty co-exist? This is not a new question and has been answered effectively elsewhere.

Perhaps Arminians and Calvinists and other shades of Classical Theists need to find a new word. Sovereignty just does not have the meaning that makes in incompatible with free will, as evident by the more common use of that word in relation to human monarchs. Roger Olsen writes:

There is no “sovereignty” in human experience like the “sovereignty” Calvinists insist we must attribute to God in order “really” to believe in “God’s sovereignty.” In ordinary human language “sovereignty” NEVER means total control of every thought and every intention of every subject. And yet it has become a Calvinist mantra that non-Calvinists “do not believe in God’s sovereignty.” I have a tape of a talk where R. C. Sproul says that Arminians “say they believe in God’s sovereignty” but he goes on to say “there’s precious little sovereignty left” (after Arminians qualify it). And yet he doesn’t admit there (or anywhere I’m aware of) that his own view of God’s sovereignty (which I call divine determinism) is not at all like sovereignty as we ordinarily mean it. That’s like saying of an absolute monarch who doesn’t control every subject’s every thought and intention and every molecule in the universe that he doesn’t really exercise sovereignty. It’s an idiosyncratic notion of “sovereignty.”

The Classical Theist seems to be coopting a word with positive connotations to illustrate a concept for which there are better words. Micromanager, Control Freak, or Petty Tyrant come to mind. But these words do not inspire positive imagery. These concepts are explicitly rejected as attributes of God by Open Theists, eliminating all conflict between these concepts and Free Will.

A critic of Open Theism writes:

How could anyone trust a god who makes mistakes, who learns, who can’t control the hearts of His people, who must wait to see what happens? Is this the stuff of confidence? Why would you even pray to a God like that?

Open Theists claims are completely self-refuting. First of all you would need more knowledge then God to make these kind of assertions in the first place.

Besides how do they explain the thousands prophesies fulfilled to the very dot and letter if God wasn’t all knowing to predict them first? The real God is present everywhere, infinite, eternal, unchangeable, eternal, wisdom, all powerful, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, outside of time, self existed. He is not like his small minded creation, lol!

I respond:

First,do you understand what the moralistic fallacy is? I can easily say “who can trust a God that controls everything and sends people to hell through no fault of their own”. The problem comes because our preference do not affect reality. Do you understand this?

Second point, it is the fallacy of hasty generalization to claim just because some prophecies do come true, then God must know the future. The relevant data are the failed prophecies. If there is just one failed prophecy, then this shows that your contention is false. The prophecy of Nineveh is one such prophecy. I contend, if you try to explain away why this prophecy is not a failed prophecy, there is no such failed prophecy in which you could not use similar logic, thus making your original claim unfalsifiable.

From a Facebook group:

I am wondering if you have a snappy response to the charge that God planned for Joseph’s brothers to treat him like dirt.
(Genesis 50:20) As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

A response:

Acts 7:9 And the patriarchs, jealous of Joseph, sold him into Egypt; but God was with him
Acts 7:10 and rescued him out of all his afflictions and gave him favor and wisdom before Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who made him ruler over Egypt and over all his household.

Only the Calvinists read this verse like Calvinists. Acts 7:9-10, God rescued Joseph from his brothers.

Scot McKnight answers a reader question:

Where are you on this one? Do you think God knows what you will wear tomorrow? Which way you will turn at the corner when you go for a leisure drive? What you will order when you go to Chipotle?

McKnight references John Goldingay, in his book, “Key Questions about Christian Faith: Old Testament Answers”. McKnight writes:

Sometimes God does not know how things will turn out.

I’m aware some of us are bothered by this statement, but I’m summarizing Goldingay and he’s reading the Bible and some passages in the Bible can be read just that way. So where?

Here’s one. Exodus 33:5: For the LORD had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’” Or this one from Jeremiah 26:3: “Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from their evil ways. Then I will relent and not inflict on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.” It is the word “Perhaps” that reveals that either God is deceiving or God doesn’t know (or maybe others have other explanations). But a “plain reading” knows that “perhaps” implies contingency. And a final one from Exodus 4:8 Then the LORD said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second. 9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground. The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground.”

Sometimes things turn out differently from God’s expectations.

“God experiences disappointment” (29). In Isaiah 5 we find a song about a vinedresser and a vineyard, and it tells us that God expected/hoped for justice and righteousness but that’s not what happened. God was surprised. Read Jeremiah 3:6-7, 19-20; Isaiah 63:8-10.

Sometimes things turn out differently than God’s announcements.

Micah predicts through God that Jerusalem would be destroyed but it wasn’t (Mic 3:12); the king submitted himself to God (Jer 26:17-19). And Jonah predicted through God that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days and it wasn’t (Jonah 3:4, 10). The word here is “unless.” If things change, God’s announcements won’t turn out.

God and Nebuchadnezzar in Ezek 26:1-21; 29:17-20. God “sought to kill Moses” but his wife, Zipporah, stepped in and God backed off (Exod 4:24-26). Goldingay says Adam would die if he ate the fruit but he didn’t die — and that is another instance of this. He sees the predictions of Jesus — Matt 10:23; Mark 9:1; Mark 13 — as the same sort of thing.

Goldingay sees this as God’s intent and announcement but that they will happen if God doesn’t change his mind or things don’t shift. God remains consistent with the goals God has in mind.
Goldingay thinks open theism’s explanations don’t always apply. Sometimes God can know the future. Before it happens. But classical theists can’t explain that sometimes God doesn’t know and that sometimes God’s announcements don’t always occur as announced.

McKinght concludes:

Goldingay thinks open theism’s explanations don’t always apply. Sometimes God can know the future. Before it happens. But classical theists can’t explain that sometimes God doesn’t know and that sometimes God’s announcements don’t always occur as announced.

Scripture isn’t bothered by these problems, so Goldingay observes.

From James Jones’ defense of his 1828 book “An Inquiry Into the Popular Notion of an Unoriginated, Infinite and Eternal Prescience: With a Preface Containing a Dialogue Between the Author and One of His Readers”:

R. But, Sir, let me ask you, Did not Luther and Melancthon, and all the Reformers, believe in this very doctrine of eternal prescience?

A. It is possible they might: but even in that case, it will only follow, that although they exposed and reformed many errors of the church of Rome, they did not reform all its erroneous doctrines. The very principle upon which the agents of the Reformation founded their innovations on the church of Rime, is that on which I am now proceeding; the right and competency of private judgment in the interpretation of the word of God. And as to unsettling people’s minds, there is no possibility of reclaiming people from error except by unsettling their opinions. But if, but unsettling of people’s opinions, we can only lead them to the knowledge of truth, and to the enjoyment of personal salvation, then the acquisition of personal piety, and correct views of religious truth, must certainly be regarded as an ample recompense for all the trouble occasioned to the thereby.

From James Jones’ defense of his 1828 book “An Inquiry Into the Popular Notion of an Unoriginated, Infinite and Eternal Prescience: With a Preface Containing a Dialogue Between the Author and One of His Readers”:

Reader: Why, Sir, your book would overturn all law and gospel at once. It is absolutely not fit to be read by any Christian people.

Answer: Perhaps, my dear Sir, you have mistaken the design of my arguments. The object of my book is to disprove the doctrine of an unoriginated, infinite, and eternal prescience ; and I am sure that I could never discover that doctrine in any part of either the law or the gospel. It is, I think, pretty certain that not any one
of the ten commandments, contains the doctrine of eternal prescience; and I think it is. equally certain that it is not contained in any of the laws of Moses. The design of the gospel, as you are well aware, is that of dispensing the blessings of mercy and salvation, by faith in Jesus Christ, and under the wise and righteous
dictates of the law of obedience to God. Pray Sir, on what principles will you identify the doctrine of eternal prescience, with either the law or the gospel?

By Christopher Fisher

Asked on Facebook:

Do you believe God doesn’t know what’s going to happen?

I know what is going to happen. Tomorrow I will wake up at about 630, be to work by 7. I will call an event vendor. I will talk to my coworker about my day off.

So if I know the future, why would I think God does not know the future?

The future is not hard to know. But, you are probably talking about some sort of special knowledge that is not related to anything we are familiar with. No, I don’t have that knowledge and neither does God. God regrets His own action of making man (Gen 6:6). God regrets His own action of appointing Saul king (1Sa 15:35). God has the angels brainstorm ways to kill King Ahab (1Ki 22). Moses convinces God not to destroy Israel through reasoned arguments (Exo 32).

No, I am not a platonist who ascribes to God a knowledge of the future invented in the pages of Plotinus. I am a Biblicalist, who thinks that the Bible accurately describes God.

On the GodisOpen Facebook page, one commenter asks:

I need some solid philosophical objections to the open view please.

Calvinists and Arminians, please help.

Jack asks:

I’m in the middle of a discussion on one of my posts to my personal page about God’s exhaustive foreknowledge. I’m looking for more verses where God says that He did not know something was going to happen. I’ve already brought up Jeremiah 19:5 and I’m still waiting for my friends reply to that I also plan on bringing up Deuteronomy 8:2.
Does anyone have any suggestions of other verses?

The verse in reference:

Deu 8:2 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Throughout the Bible, God tests to know:

Gen 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham…
Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Exo 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

Exo 33:5 For the LORD had said to Moses, “Say to the children of Israel, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you.’ ”

Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jdg 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice,
Jdg 2:21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Jdg 2:22 so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.”

1Ch 28:9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of my heart I have willingly offered all these things; and now with joy I have seen Your people, who are present here to offer willingly to You.

2Ch 32:31 However, regarding the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, whom they sent to him to inquire about the wonder that was done in the land, God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart.

Psa 11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple, The LORD’s throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.

Psa 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; Try my mind and my heart.

Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
Psa 139:24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

This concept is found throughout the Bible in varied wording. God tests to know.

As to Jack’s original question, the verses are too numerous to count. Every time God becomes furious at the actions of mankind, this reveals that the future is not set. Every time God urges people to choose Him, this reveals that the future is unknown. Every time God repents or changes His plans or revokes His promises, this reveals that the future in unknown. In contrast to the Classical Theists, who rely on a small handful of texts ripped out of context and given undue prominence (and meaning), Open Theists just have to point to the story of the Bible.

To those who view God’s speech as anthropomorphic in Exodus 32.

When Moses is talking to God in Exodus 32, Calvinists claim that God’s speech is an anthropomorphism. Is Moses’ speech an anthropomorphism? How does Moses view God when He is speaking to God? And then who wrote Exodus? If it is Moses, why do we assume writer Moses had a different perspective of God than speaker Moses?

An atheist asks:

3. Since Adam and Eve didn’t know right from wrong before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, why did God then punish them for something they didn’t understand they were doing?

The answer has more to do with what eating from the tree accomplished. Per Rabbi Sacks in The Great Partnership:

The biblical word da’at, ‘knowledge’, does not mean in Hebrew what it is normally taken to mean in the West, namely knowledge of facts, theories, systems and truths. It means interpersonal knowledge, intimacy, empathy. The ‘tree of knowledge’ is about this kind of knowledge. True knowledge that the other is not a mirror image of me, that he or she has wants and needs of her own that may clash with mine, is the source of all love and all pain. To know that I am known makes me want to hide: that is the couple’s first response after eating the fruit. The turning point comes when the man gives Eve a proper name. Love is born when we recognise the integrity of otherness. That is the meaning of love between people. It is the meaning of love between us and God. Only when we make space for the human other do we make space for the divine Other.

Adam and Eve learned about each-other through eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Before this time, they still knew it was wrong to disobey God (God told them the consequences outright), but they did not seem to have awareness of intimacy. Eating of the tree resulted in self-awareness, the death of naïvety.

To those who believe God knows the future or is immutable, Exodus 32 describes a conversation between Moses and God. Did this conversation literally happen?

Exo 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
Exo 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'”
Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”
Exo 32:11 But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, “O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.'”
Exo 32:14 And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

The Bible is a big book. At some counts, it has 31,102 verses. For those who believe in exhaustive future foreknowledge, please quote one verse that claims that God knows everything that will happen in the future.

From What is Open Theism:

How could God in any manner guarantee our eternal salvation if He does not know what the future holds?

This question might as well be worded: “How can God guarantee something He has unilateral control to decide?” What set of circumstances does the author believe would force God’s hand to revoke eternal salvation? If God has unilateral power to do something, why couldn’t He guarantee it?

For those who use Numbers 23:19 as a prooftext that God does not change:

Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Would we not do better to understand Balaam’s (a prophet despised in the Bible) description of God as limited to the context and Jonah’s description (that repentance is a core of God’s very nature) of God as absolute?

Jon 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

On a Youtube video:

Your claim is that God chooses (and chooses arbitrarily). When God chose the house of Eli to be His priests forever, did He change His mind based on that actions of Eli’s sons? Can the chosen be rejected (un-chosen) based on their actions?

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that your house and the house of your father should go in and out before me forever,’ but now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me, for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

The Calvinist’s non-response:

I never said He chooses arbitrarily. He has His reasons. He just doesn’t always tell us what they are.

Can the chosen be rejected (un-chosen) based on their actions?

It depends on what they were chosen for. Those chosen for salvation, no.

The reply:

In 1 Sam 2:30, God recalls that He has given an “eternal” promise. This eternal promise is revoked based on the actions of human beings. Instead, God replaces His eternal promise with a new system in which He will reward based on actions. So the question to you: can God’s eternal promises be revoked? If so, in what way were they eternal? Can the elect, chosen for an eternal promise, reject God?

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that your house and the house of your father should go in and out before me forever,’ but now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me, for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

To the Calvinist who believes that 1 Sam 15 is a good prooftext for immutability:

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent.”

Is it possible that 1 Sam 15:29 is limited to the context (God is saying He will not repent of repenting of making Saul king) and that 1Sa 15:35 and 1Sa 15:11 better describe God’s thoughts and actions as described in the chapter?

In response to a Calvinist rant:

Words that make a Reformed Christian cringe when some people start to talk about God..”Allow God to”….”Let God” …” God Needs” ….”Dont Get Outside God’s Will”…Or any reference to “Outside Will of God”…” “Sow a Seed Then refer to $$Money “…ughhh…Uhm yea, PLEASE stop…because God doesn’t NEED for nothing, He Commands and Calls…God Doesnt ask Permission for ANYTHING from NO one, so stop Saying ALLOW or LET. ..Our God is in heaven and he does whatever he pleases, according to HIS WILL which in return Benafits us even in his Wrath or Our Trials and Tribulations … God is Sovereign folks ALL the time not Sometimes Sovereign. …Stop putting man’s Standards and Limitations on God…

A question:

Here is what I do not understand. If the Bible regularly talks like this, how can Christians be condemned for speaking the same way?

Luk 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Psa 78:41 Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.

Jer 25:6 Do not go after other gods to serve and worship them, or provoke me to anger with the work of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’

Calvinists are notoriously bad at answering straightforward questions. They often avoid questions, especially “yes or no” questions about basic reading comprehension in the Bible. This is a list of questions that demonstrate this fact.

Sovereignty (Calvinism equates “sovereignty” with “meticulous control” although this concept is foreign to any human culture):

1. If God’s will is always already being done on earth as in heaven (as divine determinism implies) why did Jesus teach his disciples to pray, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?”

Verse: Luk 11:2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

2. People are tempted by evil. Does God cause this?

Verse: Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

3. Can God’s appointments be thwarted by man?

Verse: 1Ki 20:42 Then he said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because you have let slip out of your hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people.’ ”

4. When God “struck” (aka “killed”) the children of Israel, did God’s intended purpose materialize?

Verse: Jer 2:30 In vain have I struck your children; they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion.

5. In the parable of the potter, does God finish what He started to do?

Verse: Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

Omniscience (Calvinism believes God has complete knowledge of all future events):

6. Does God test people to learn what they will do?

Verse: Deu 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Verse: 2Ch 32:31 However, regarding the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, whom they sent to him to inquire about the wonder that was done in the land, God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart.

7. Does God ever regret something He did?

Verse: Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Verse: 1Sa 15:11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night.

8. Does God say He will do something although He knows that He will never do that thing?

Verse: 1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

9. When the Bible says God “thought to do” something that He does not do, what does “thought to do” mean?

Verse: Jer 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
Jer 18:8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

10. Did God do what He said He would do in Jonah?

Verse: Jon 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Immutability (Calvinism believes God cannot change in any way):

11. Could God have prevented the evil currently in this world? And if so, how can God be immutable? If no, how can God be omnipotent?

Verse: Jdg 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice,
Jdg 2:21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Jdg 2:22 so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.”

12. When God became flesh, was that a change?

Verse: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
…
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Timelessness (Calvinism believes God resides outside of “time”):

13. Does God ever wait patiently and endure up to a breaking point?

Verse: Isa 42:14 “I have held My peace a long time, I have been still and restrained Myself. Now I will cry like a woman in labor, I will pant and gasp at once.

Goodness:

14. How can a God who cannot lie make specific time-limit prophecies that do not come true when He said they would?

Verse: Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Verse: 2Ki 20:5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ‘ ”

Jesus (Calvinism believes that Jesus is God except for the part of Jesus that was human):

15. Was the part of Jesus that was “body” also “Godhead”?

Verse: Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

16. Did Jesus know everything?

Verse: Mar 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

17. In what way does Jesus resemble an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, timeless, and simple God?

Verse: Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

18. If Jesus’ will is the same as God’s will, then why would Jesus say that Jesus’ will would not be done if God’s will is done?

Verse: Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

19. Could Jesus have been saved from crucifixion by praying to God?

Verse: Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Miscellaneous:

20. Why are the elect the enemy of the gospel?

Verse: Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

From the Facebook group Open Theism:

Is there a consensus on the nature of “freewill” after a Christian is in heaven? Is there a guarantee that one will not choose to rebel against God in the afterlife?

Like much of Open Theist doctrines, there is no consensus. Open Theists can believe either. There is superficial reasons to believe people will always have free will. See Robots in Heaven.

To Calvinists:

Is there evil in this world? Is it possible for God to stop this evil?

If so, how can God be immutable?

If Calvinism or Negative Theology is true, why is the thrust of Critical Biblical scholarship under the understanding that the Old Testament, in particular, holds no concept of Negative Theology (omnipresense, omnipotence, omniscience, timelessness, immutability, etc)? Do not critics usually focus on their most solid evidence?

Those who confuse the biblical character Yahweh with the “God” constructed by classical western theology may be troubled by the fact that Yahweh is presented in his interactions with humans in the Pentateuch as neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Unacquainted with the god constructed by western theology many centuries later, the biblical narrator( s) felt no such confusion, asserting the great power of Yahweh on the one hand and the absolute freedom of humankind on the other.

Hayes, Christine (2012-10-30). Introduction to the Bible (The Open Yale Courses Series) (Kindle Locations 964-967). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

What is most crucial about this relatedness is that Israel’s stock testimony is unconcerned to use a vocabulary that speaks about Yahweh’s own person per se. Israel has little vocabulary for that and little interest in exploring it. Such modest terminology as Israel has for Yahweh’s self might revolve around “Yahweh is holy,” but this sort of language is not normally used, and most often it occurs only in specialized priestly manuals. More important, Israel’s characteristic adjectival vocabulary about Yahweh is completely lacking in terms that have dominated classical theology, such as omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. This sharp contrast suggests that classical theology, insofar as it is dominated by such interpretive categories and such concerns, is engaged in issues that are not crucial for Israel’s testimony about Yahweh and are in fact quite remote from Israel’s primary utterance.

Brueggemann, Walter (2005-07-19). Theology of the Old Testament: Testimony, Dispute, Advocacy (p. 225). Fortress Press. Kindle Edition.

To those who believe in Omniscience:

Does God know exactly what it is like to be a man who has sinned and has become separated from God without hope of redemption? Or is knowledge not without context?

To those who believe that God never changes His mind in the Bible:

Please give an example of a human changing their mind in the Bible.

From Roger Olson to Calvinists in Perspectives on the Doctrine of God:

Would any jury convict a person of murder if they knew the person could not have done otherwise— even if they wanted to murder the victim?

From Roger Olson to Calvinists in Perspectives on the Doctrine of God:

If free will is consistent with determinism (as compatibilism says), how is the person who does what he or she cannot avoid doing responsible?

From Roger Olson to Calvinists in Perspectives on the Doctrine of God:

If God’s will is always already being done on earth as in heaven (as divine determinism implies) why did Jesus teach his disciples to pray, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?”

To those who believe God knows the future exhaustively:

Does God say He will do something although He knows that He will never do that thing?

So, let us run a thought experiment. Pretend Isaiah 40-48 means what Calvinists claim it means: that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future.

Does that mean God has always had exhaustive knowledge of the future? When compared to Genesis 6, wouldn’t the more rational position (assuming Isaiah 40-48 means God knows the future) be that God acquired at some point between Genesis 6 and Isaiah 40-48 the ability to know the future?

From a Facebook group, a post by Christopher Fisher:

From the OP: “Why did [God] create Satan if He knew He would turn bad?”

It seems to be standard in this thread that people’s answer is “God knew that Satan would sin, but created Him anyway to show something rather than not create Satan along with all the evil Satan would do.”

But that is not the Biblical narrative. When God sees creatures turn out evil, He regrets making them, He is perplexed, His attempts to correct fail:

Gen 6:6 And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Jdg 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice,
Jdg 2:21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Jdg 2:22 so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.”

Zep 3:7 I said, ‘Surely you will fear Me, You will receive instruction’— So that her dwelling would not be cut off, Despite everything for which I punished her. But they rose early and corrupted all their deeds.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

Jer 2:30 In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

Maybe the answer to Elaine’s question is that God didn’t expect Satan to turn out bad.

To those who believe God controls all things, did ever God appoint someone for destruction and that appointment was thwarted?

1Ki 20:42 Then he said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because you have let slip out of your hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people.’ ”

To those who follow the teachings of James White and Alpha and Omega Ministries:

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

The part of Jesus’ nature which was human… was that God?

A YouTube commenter challenges:

2) Did Jeremiah just get lucky when he prophesied that Jesus would be bought by men for precisely 30 silver, centuries later?

Jeremiah didn’t actually do that. Zechariah is what is being referenced. The context has nothing to do with Jesus.

Zec 11:12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.

In fact, if no 30 pieces of silver were ever used to purchase a field, no one would ever have heard of this failed prophecy. There is zero indication in Zechariah that this is a prophecy!

In ancient Israel, they showed truth by showing parallels. Things were true if they had precedence. That is what Matthew does when he says scripture is “fulfilled”. The fulfilled scripture usually has zero indication of having a secondary prophetic meaning. Paul and James even use precedence to prove competing points! And the context of some of Paul’s prooftexts are often the opposite point he advocates with the prooftexts. The idea is parallelism, not prophecy.

To those who believe God knows the future:

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

2Ki 20:5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ‘ ”

How can a God who cannot lie make specific time-limit prophecies that do not come true when He said they would?

To those who believe God has a meaningful purpose in everything He does:

Jer 2:30 In vain have I struck your children; they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion.

When God “struck” (aka “killed”) the children of Israel, did God’s intended purpose materialize?

To those who believe the author/s of Genesis believed in omniscience of all future events:

Please show the verses in Genesis that suggests God possesses this type of omniscience of future events.

To those who believe God is a timeless, spaceless, immutable, emotionless, abstract and absolutely omniscient being: When Jesus tells his disciples to look at him to see the Father, in what way did Jesus resemble the Father?

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

A Calvinist named Avery asks in a mocking manner on Facebook group Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelagianism, Wesleyanism, Finneyism, Lutheranism…:

Why do Arminians hate the sovereignty of God?

John Moore responds, fittingly:

Why do Calvinists define “sovereignty” wrongly then make an idol of it and don’t think twice if they impugn and malign the character of God as long as they keep their idol intact?

For those who believes Romans 8-11 is about individual salvation as opposed to national election:

Rom 11:11 I say then, have they [the Jews] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Per Romans 11, were only Jews chosen by God before the fall of the Jews?

To those who believe the future is settled:

Why do you not pray for past events in the same manner you pray for future events?

On the Open Theism Facebook page, John asks:

How do we explain Genesis 15:13 “God said to Abram, ‘know for certain that your descendants will be enslaved in a Foreign land for 400 years?”

In response, an article was posted by Gregory Boyd:

This passage may constitute a conditional prophecy which could have been modified had circumstances called for it. Many if not most prophecies in the Bible are conditional (cf. Jer. 18:7–10). They are not mere previews of an unalterable future. They rather reveal God’s present intentions, assuming things don’t change.

On the other hand, the passage may indeed constitute an unconditional prophecy. In this case the passage reveals a now-unalterable feature of God’s providential plan. The sovereign Lord of history who is ultimately in control of the movement of the nations (Acts 17:24–28) deemed it wise to ensure that his future people would be in captivity for four centuries. It is important to note, however, that the Lord would not need to control and/or foreknow every other detail about human history to accomplish this. The Lord of history who grants whatever degree of freedom he wishes to grant to his human subjects can control and foreknow aspects of the future and guide history toward his desired goal without micro-controlling and foreknowing every detail along the way.

John asks in the Open Theism Facebook group:

Ok in OT God doesn’t know the future. So how can God know what’s best? Can he make a mistake? Did he make a mistake? And did he make a mistake in the Bible?

The answer is pretty simple, actually. When someone else is to blame, then it is not your mistake. If I hire a worker and 10 years down the road they go through a painful divorce and shoot up the office, then it is not “my mistake” because I hired that worker. Nothing that I did could be considered unreasonable by normal standards and definitely could not be predicted. Mistakes may have been made, but the fault would not be with me.

But what if I ran a background check on the man and it turned out that he was just released from prison for shooting up an office. In that case, I may have made a huge mistake. Because I was negligent and should have acted wiser, the blame falls on me for the office shooting. Of course, the shooter has the moral culpability. But I would have made a mistake in putting all employees at risk.

There is a distinct difference between the two scenarios. When God repents of making Saul King, when God repents of making man, the only real way that would be a mistake is if God had reasonable knowledge beforehand that events would turn out the way they did. In other words, the only way that God would have made a mistake is if God knew the future.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
…
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

In the Bible, when John writes that the “word became flesh” after saying the “word was God”, is that a change?

If someone is asked: “Does the government fund tunnels for turtles?” A proper response is either yes or no. A improper response is “You think that is a proper description of the governments overall funding objectives?” [paralleled by James White’s absurd answers to similar questions]. That response misses the point. The point of the question is to highlight a particularly wasteful and absurd use of funding, not to capture the primary description of all funding. Avoidance of a simple question about government funding turtle tunnels is a sign of intellectual dishonesty.

Likewise, to Calvinists who believe God predestines everything.

Does God predestine child rape?

Yes or No.

For those who believe God is absolutely simple:

Is the trinity absolutely indivisible?

From a Calvinist Facebook page:

Since there appear to be so many in this group who do not believe in the sovereignty of God in election please Answer the following.

1. Can God heal someone without them giving Him permission?
2. Do you ever pray for God to soften someone’s heart?
3. Do you think that the Ark is a story that also represents Grace?
4. If salvation relied totally on the will of man to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, what wires the brain or heart different from person to person to accept or deny?

1. I could too. Just strap them to a table and fix them. Of course God can.
2. Yes. In the Bible God had mechanics for softening and hardening hearts. Sometimes God hardened hearts by insulting someone’s pride. Sometimes God softened someone’s heart by turning them into a wild beast for years upon years.
3. Sure.
4. Nothing “wires the heart differently”. Throughout the Bible God laments in a confused fashion as to why people reject Him. God says: “What more could I do?”. Human beings are not input-output devices that one just has to flip a switch. We originate our own thoughts and desires, as James writes.

To those who believe Psalms 139 advocates God planning every man’s days.

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

Can Psalms 139:16 mean anything other than that God knows when people will die?

[This is an intellectual honesty test.]

To those who believe God is outside of time.

Does God ever wait patiently and endure to a breaking point?

Isa 42:14 “I have held My peace a long time, I have been still and restrained Myself. Now I will cry like a woman in labor, I will pant and gasp at once.
Isa 42:15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills, And dry up all their vegetation; I will make the rivers coastlands, And I will dry up the pools.

To those who believe that God can do “anything” yet knows everything.

Can God choose to think a new thought?

From The Openness of God:

Those who are unsure of this should ask themselves if they think God could create a world where he would not be in total control of everything, where he would experience risk and where he would not foreknow all decisions of his creatures in advance. Surely this must be possible if God is all-powerful. Then is this world not just like that? Has God not already made just such a world? Does the Bible not assume it-do we not experience it as such.

To those who hold a classical view of omniscience:

Can God Choose not to know something?

For those who believe God knows the future:

Jer 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
Jer 18:8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

What does “thought to bring” mean?

What would a casual reader believe it means?

From Will Duffy on God is Open:

Calvinists and Arminians claim that something perfect cannot change. Yet Christ changed as a Man, as He grew in wisdom and stature. Their answer to this is that Christ changed in His human nature, not His divine nature. I disagree with their argument, of course, but set that aside for a second. Are they saying Christ’s human nature was not perfect, since it changed?

From Ben on Thomas J Oord’s post concerning Paths to Open Theism:

“Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.”

As an honest question, how does open theism describe this verse? It seems that the author of this verse insists that God “knows”- “before” human action takes place. Before he speaks “a word is on my tongue” ‘O Lord, you know it altogether’. Here, it seems that the future (before human action occurs) can be known by God.

Answer – Psalms 139 is a chapter describing King David’s special relationship with God. It would be a mistake to read this out of context, diluting the meaning. To say that all statements in Psalms 139 applies to all people or even all Christians defeats the point that King David is trying to stress: “That King David has a special and unique relationship with God.”

It is in this context that David says “before a word is on my tongue, you Lord, know it.” The meaning is that God knows David so well that God knows what David is going to say. Just like in the modern world, people state that some couples finish each other’s sentences. This does not mean each one can see the future, but that they know each other so well that their words can be anticipated.

For this statement to mean “God sees the future and as a result knows people’s words”, this would also defeat the meaning trying to be communicated. There is nothing special or relational about just merely using mundane powers to see things that will happen in order to know them. There is something special about knowing someone so well that their future free choices can be anticipated.

In other words, Psalms 139:4 only makes sense in light of Open Theism.

Pastor Gregory Boyd is Rachel Held Evans’ guest today, answering questions on Open Theism.

Excerpt questions:

Stephanie • 9 hours ago −
How old is this view? Is it relatively new, or have Christians been believing this for some time?

Erin • 9 hours ago −
Could you explain, in your perspective, how God ‘knows’ — knows time, knows human intention, knows… everything? Does God know all possible outcomes or does Open Theism see it more that God is moving at the pace of humanity, & perhaps doesn’t know?

Matt • 9 hours ago −
This is an interesting concept that I have often pondered. What would you say are some of the common “gotcha” verses people use to contradict this “open view of the future,” and what is your take on those verses?

Trevor Wilson • 7 hours ago −
Anyone is free to answer this because I’m sure it’s different for everyone but:

Why does our perception of the future matter? How does this affect how we treat our neighbors?

I think I’d be more interested in this discussion if I knew the answer to this.

Affiliates, feel free to answer (these or others) and then submit as guest posts.