Calvinism. There’s a lot to address, so the expectation of brevity is not well founded. When you really examine things, especially false things with tons of ostensible historical support, there’s a lot of baggage, and it all needs to be torn through.
First, let’s lay some ground rules for this discussion to potentially be fruitful, and not an exercise in futility…
I will be describing calvinism, what calvinists believe, etc, often in this writing, and its important to understand the context in which I speak. I am not speaking for the calvinist. I am not saying that my claims about calvinism are the way a calvinist would describe their beliefs, or the logically inescapable implications of said beliefs. That is not what I am doing here. And no, me not doing that does *NOT* mean that I am only arguing against a straw man, or intellectually dishonestly misrepresenting what calvinists believe. I am critically examining calvinism, and pointing out things about it which ARE TRUE, but which calvinists do not believe, realize, deny in unrighteousness, etc. WORLDS of difference between that and a straw man. And that is how ALL refutation works. That is what calvinists do to other worldviews as well. I am not doing anything that they don’t do to others, to them. I will point out things about their beliefs which are unintended consequences and implications of things they do actually affirm. If you think I am misascribing an implication or consequence, etc, skip the accusations of dishonesty and fallacy, and instead address the underlying logic I am employing when I assert said implication or consequence. In other words, actually refute my claim.
The thing about calvinists and accusing people of straw manning calvinism, is that their standards for what constitutes a straw man are some very shifty goalposts. When a calvinist apologist is debating an atheist and points out logically inescapable yet unintended consequences of the atheistic worldview as the atheist themselves would enunciate it, calvinists are fine with that. When a calvinist wants to “refute” another theological perspective, they can do the same thing, and again, no calvinist will call that a straw man. But you point out the logically inescapable yet unintended consequences of calvinism as a calvinist would themselves enunciate it, and all of a sudden an internal critique is automatically a straw man.
This ties in directly to how most calvinists utterly misapprehend how presup works, they think neutrality being illusory and their confused understanding of epistemology means that they’re incapable of critically examining their own beliefs in earnest, and that’s not the case at all. This same issue also ties directly into how common a practice it is among calvinists to hold one singular facet of an opposed worldview up to the light of calvinism, and when it doesn’t match up, acting like that’s somehow tantamount to refuting that one facet of the opposed worldview that was taken out of context.
Based on these phenomenon which I consistently encounter when dealing with calvinists in critical discourse (virtually 100%, in fact I really might think it might be ACTUALLY 100%), I can only conclude that calvinists are religiously against earnest critical self examination.
If you read what I am about to say, and comment about it saying something like “I didn’t even need to read any further than this line har har har” we’re done. We have nothing to discuss. You’re not interested in a logical debate. Move along back to the kiddie table. We all have read the bible, we all know the scriptures at play in this discussion/topic. There’s no need for my argument to directly quote scripture ever, because its based on refuting the underlying logic and presuppositions that undergird calvinism, through which the scriptures in question are interpreted. I am not interested in a copy/paste verses competition. If I say “we know X from scripture” and you disagree, don’t come at me like I am dishonestly making my points about what scripture says and that’s why I am not directly quoting scripture (I do not deal with that entire vibe of people), skip the accusation, and instead just tell me what you disagree with, why, and allow me to respond. Don’t act like your interpretation being right, and mine being wrong, is a given, and run with it, or I will just ignore you. Believe me, I am willing, and VERY able to discuss the specifics of scripture, if you feel that there’s something I over looked, misunderstood, etc, bring it up. But don’t just ignore my points and start at the first step of the dialectic, if you ignore my points, I ignore you. I won’t be unequally yoked. If you stop reading part way, to take issue with something I address later on in this post, since you’re ignoring my points yet insist on asking questions about them, I will ignore your questions in return. Look for your answer here first, or don’t ask me. If you have read the whole thing, and don’t see that I have responded to an issue, even if I think I have, I won’t hold it against you. I understand you might not notice the part I am addressing that, or associate what I am saying with that issue, etc, that’s fine. All I am saying is READ THE WHOLE POST FIRST.
We all know the proof texts calvinists use to try and affirm their positions, we don’t need to read over those. We know what they say. Anyone participating in a discussion of calvinism better first familiarize yourselves with what calvinists believe, and their ostensible “proof” texts for such. This discussion will be assuming a certain minimum level of background knowledge on the topic, and won’t be making attempts at speaking at the level of the novice to this topic. The debate really is so much more about the presuppositions and epistemological background that goes into calvinistic interpretations of scripture that need to be addressed. Its much more a logic issue (and intellectual honesty/self deception issue, as bahnsen would put it), than a simple matter of copy/pasting verses back and forth at each other. Two people, who both hold to false views, can engage in this sort of sophistry all day.
Its pointless to debate the data, before getting on the same page about valid standards, methods, etc, for interpretation of the data, ruling out common misconceptions, and talk about what would and would not constitute a point or defeater for each side. Also refer to my previously stated rules at the beginning of this note for the rest of the ground rules I have set for interacting with me. Nothing even slightly weird to expect, although this is the internet, and sadly even among “christian” circles, most people either don’t know how to be civil and discuss IDEAS instead of people on a personal level, or think being matter of fact and blunt is the same as being over the top rude. Neither are the case, so don’t come at me like that. The reason I bother to set ground rules is because without doing so, 90% of my time in a debate is taken up dealing with people who don’t understand communication, basic logic, debate, textual criticism, etc. (also because people tend to give more credence to a disclaimer than a refutation of a thing they’ve already commited themselves to, so dealing with it when it comes up sometimes proves impossible). Terms like “heretic”, etc, will get you no where with me. I don’t appeal to men, nor history. You need to learn the actual meaning and scope of the word if you want to go around using it as a defeater for arguments.
Now that that’s out of the way, lets discuss some commonly accepted calvinistic theology that makes God into the author of sin, who is Ha’Shatan…
Calvinists say that we, for all intents and purposes, do not have free will. Some will add the apologetic to that, that we have free will, but only within the confines of our nature. And many non-calvinists would agree with that apologetic. But the point here is that calvinism teaches that libertarian free will (IE actual, non word game free will) is mutually exclusive with God being truely sovereign. Nature, as calvinists, and those who see the issue of freewill similarly, define it, would include aspects of your nature such as “to be sinful”, or “to not repent of your sins”, or “to rebel against God”, etc etc etc. Now my question is this: If our freewill is confined by our nature, and the choices made with our freewill determine our fate, then who so ever gave us our nature, determined our fates at that same moment, did they not? So how is the whole “nature” apologetic actually an apologetic to the issue being raised that their theology makes God into the author of sin, and an arbitrary tyrant who punished those who do what he forces them to do? Its mere can-kickery. Its just kicking the can back a step. Instead of God forcing us to sin and then punishing us for what he forces us to do, he forces us to have a nature that forces us to sin, and then punishes us for what the thing he bestowed on us forced us to do. Merely kicking the can of tyranny back a step is not addressing the issue at all. Either way we’re all on rails, being punished for that which we’re forced to do. Forced to do by the punisher. The god of calvinism desires for us to do that which he desires us not to do. For his pleasure, we violate his will. That sounds to me, not like the God of truth, but a sower of confusion.
Let me draw a little timeline to help illustrate my point…
1) God gives us/determines our nature before we’re born.
2) We sin, reject repentance, and reject God, as part of our God-given nature.
3) We die, and are resurrected for the judgement.
4) We’re judged according to the choices we made with our freewill, which are completely confined by our nature, which God assigned to us.
5) We’re punished, based on a fate which was 100% handed to us, and we had 0% chance of effecting or changing in any substantive way that changes our ultimate fate.
This timeline does not describe the God of the bible, what it describes is the author of evil, and also an unloving tyrant. Not by my own standards, I am not holding the false god of calvinism to my standards and judging him, he is being judged by The One True God’s standards as we find them in the bible. If our nature confines our actions, and we’re immutably assigned our nature, we’re being punished for the nature being foisted upon us. There is no moral agency there. There is no earning of a punishment. There is precisely zero personal responsibility in that equation. There’s only a puppet master getting mad that his marrionettes moved the way he made them move with his strings. A prideful, arrogant, wrathful child. Not fitting of the psychological profile of The Most High YHWH Father Elohim, but instead fitting of the psychological profile of Ha’Shatan.
Calvinism seems to think that if you don’t believe that God is directly responsible for everything that ever occurs, then your religion is man-centered and you’ve turned God into something other than sovereign over all. When in actuality, what brings more glory to God? That his will be done on earth as it is in heaven EVEN THOUGH many oppose his will, that, even though people oppose him, and he’s given free will to us, still his plans inescapably come to fruition, or that everything to ever exist is merely the playing out of the preprogrammed movements of his robots on rails? What makes God more sovereign? That he has power enough to relinquish sovereignty where he sees fit through giving people free will, etc, or the arbitrary and unscriptural limitations you’ve placed on his power which state he cannot give people true free will?
Let’s be clear, at its core, calvinism is deterministic in nature. There’s no two ways around that. Its confused and twisted conception of sovereignty will not allow for anything else. Calvinists really need to get through their heads that only through YHWH’s sovereignty do we have the free will to go against his will. Our ability to sin is a testament to YHWH’s sovereignty, since he deemed us able to sin, if we chose to disobey him, because it was HIS WILL that it be that way. To say us having true, robust free will, is mutually exclusive with God’s true sovereignty, is for the calvinist to be the one impugning his sovereignty. The calvinists are the ones setting arbitrary limits upon him and what he can and cannot do. And no, its not a logical contradiction either, its not a “creating a rock too heavy to lift” nonsensical thing. Free will and God’s sovereignty simply are not logically at odds in the slightest, and no matter how embarassed that fact makes calvinists in light of their worldview, that fact remains unscathed. Calvinists can rail against it all they like. If not for his will being so, we would not have the ability to choose to disobey him. And only through the ability to choose to disobey YHWH does our obedience to him become meaningful. Also, only through our ability to choose to obey YHWH, does our punishment become just, and something we have earned for ourselves with our own agency. Its impossible to construct a framework within which people have agency sufficient to be deserving of punishment for things that they do not have the sufficient agency to actually do, or not do, as the case may be. That is a glaring example of how calvinists try to have their cake and eat it too.
If we do what we do because he made us do what we do, that is not giving glory to God. That is making him a puppet master. Its not impressive for people to praise you because those people are puppets on your strings, and you’re moving the strings in a manner that makes them praise you. Likewise, if all things are his will that happen, you make YHWH the author of sin. You make him violate his own standards. That makes him not holy in your sight. We know right and wrong based on their relationship/reflection in the eternal, unchanging character and nature of God. We get our conceptions of personal responsibility, choice, and justice, from SCRIPTURE. Again, not judging God with my personal standards, judging the false god of calvinism by the standards of SCRIPTURE, by GOD’S standards. So if we know that holding someone responsible for something we forced them to do is wrong, we know it because that’s a reflection of God’s eternal and unchanging character on the matter. If God’s will is eternally holy and unchanging, but he also wills people to violate his will, you are creating a god after your own image, namely one who’s mind is riddled with cognitive dissonance. But that is not The God of The Bible, it is the false god of calvinism. It is a disguise that Ha’Shatan wears.
There’s so much confusion involved in how so many of calvinists think their sins and life interact with “the cross”, “so no need to work more toward a better me” this is predicated on the concept that its either all God, or all us, a false dichotomy of all or nothing thinking. These sorts of confusions are the fruit of calvinism, or “calfeatism” as some have dubbed it.
A gift is given without being earned, but is either accepted or refused by the receiver. its not at ALL in the LEAST against the COMPLETE sovereignty of God to say that we can refuse salvation. In his SOVEREIGNTY, he has given us that free will. And whats funny too is that calvinists will laud their own “holiness”, when living a lifestyle completely lacking in holiness. Even teaching against holiness openly. Holiness is WHOLE. Not HOLE. You cant be lawless and holy. Sorry, that’s not a compatible combination. If you were made holy, where’s the fruit of said holiness? Where is the calvinist demonstrating their holiness? There’s so much churchianity doctrine that’s totally not in the bible in these people’s beliefs, they really dont deserve to be associated with the bible, so much as organized churchianity. Its frustrating to no end how they’re non-stop saying quotes from theologians, false teachers, etc, and acting like they’re quoting something at all authoritative. They will proceed to quote a theologian, and act like his words are just as authoritative, or “debate ending” as an explicit statement from scripture. But only if its the theologians they like, that have the doctrine they agree with. They pick their favorite theologians based around affirming their preconceived notions and then turn to that same theologian as a “proof” of a belief that they only liked the theologian because he agreed with them on that matter in the first place (an obfuscation tactic for their egregious question begging).
Your calvinistic “god” is Satan. The “god” of calvinism is the author of sin. The god of calvinism even supposedly chose to MAKE satan the father of lies, and MAKE him cause humanity’s fall into sin, because he desired those things in and unto themselves for his pleasure. Yes specifically in and unto themselves. Yes specifically because them happening pleased him. Yep, you believe that things happening which are against God’s will, are pleasing to God. Your god is a confused psychopath. By the standards of discernment we find in scripture, not my own fleshly, “reprobate” standards, mind you.
A gift is not earned, but can be accepted, or refused. It takes two to tango, but God leads. Its not “man-centered” to say “when God gave me the gift of salvation, I accepted that gift”. Acceptance of a gift does not mean you gave it to yourself (IE you’re not saving yourself by accepting it, this is more calvinistic confusion, despite what they will falsely assert to the contrary). The possibility for refusal does not undermine sovereignty, since, AGAIN, only through God’s sovereignty do we have the free will to refuse the gift. Calvinism makes YHWH into the author of evil, and an arbitrary tyrant who is anything but just. (to be clear: “just” by the objective standards in scripture, I cannot be accused of exalting my own morals above God’s, I’m actually pointing out a CONTRADICTION between the concept of justice we find in scripture, and the “justice” of the god of calvinism) Many have tried, but all have failed, to refute the defeaters for calvinism. Yes all of them think they succeeded…yet all of them failed. Which is of course, very telling on many levels. My favorite calvinist, Greg Bahnsen, wrote extensively on self deception, I highly suggest giving it a read to any calvinist.
The only thing Greg Bahnsen consistently disappoints me on when I listen to his debates, is when the problem of evil is brought up. The same goes for every calvinist practitioner of the transcendental argument/presuppositional apologetics out there, without free will as part of his worldview, he has no adequate response for the issue. He only has HALF a response, he can impugn the basis by which the atheist/unbeliever morally takes issue with it from within the framework of their own atheistic worldview, but just like we presuppositionalists hold our opponent’s worldviews to the fire of their own standards in search of self contradiction, so too must we hold our own worldview to the fire of our own standards for the same purpose. Its not enough to say “by what basis do you morally take issue with it?” showing that their worldview is not driving the point home is only half the battle, because you also have to show how your own worldview, which is the actual target, does not allow for the point to be driven home. It may very well be that the morality the atheist/unbeliever is normally appealing to is false, and he later realizes that, and also realizes that the morality of the bible is valid, and so by those standards could raise the same issue (not that their opponent would need to do this to bring up the fact that the calvinist response to the problem of evil is deeply flawed). Then the calvinist is left with no response, except their classic folly of accusing the person of judging God by his own personal standards, which is almost never the case when they make this fallacious, and frankly, somewhat duplicitous, accusation. But its certainly not the case when someone realizes that the calvinistic conception of god is at odds with the scriptural conception thereof.
As a man, John Calvin was an avid follower of Ha’Shatan, although he may not have known it. But a deductive syllogism can be constructed to illustrate this claim:
P1) all murders are satanic ritual human sacrifices
P2) all false teachings are ultimately influenced by Ha’Shatan
P3) Calvin taught false teachings (which make God into a villain), and ordered people’s extra-scriptural execution who opposed his theology (IE he had them murdered)
C1) John Calvin was a satanist
For those who still want to deny that calvinism makes God into the author of sin, here you have it… “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. For as it belongs to his wisdom to foreknow all future events, so it belongs to his power to rule and govern them by his hand.” John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (III.xxiii.7) So really, John Calvin is admitting here that he teaches luciferianism.
There is an interesting parallel between the serpent seed doctrine, and calvinism. If, hypothetically, the serpent seed doctrine were true, and I could be guaranteed damnation for who my earliest ancestor is, then I would be a glad and willful enemy of that god, the same as I would the god of calvinism (again, even though I know calvinists are intellectually dishonest enough to completely internally acknowledge this disclaimer but then ignore and make the exact accusation being disclaimed, I will disclaim it anyway: NOT BY MY OWN FLESHLY STANDARDS, BUT THE STANDARDS OF GOD AS WE LEARN THEM IN SCRIPTURE. THOSE ARE THE STANDARDS I AM JUDGING BY. ITS BY THOSE OBJECTIVE AND TRUE STANDARDS THAT I PROCLAIM THAT I WOULD OPPOSE THE gOD OF SERPENT SEEDERS OR CALVINISTS). “The Most High” cannot be “The Most High” if he blames his puppets for moving with the strings, in the very ways he tugs said strings. That is a blasphemy to ascribe to a loving and merciful sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, Father God, and exactly what Satan would want you to think is true about a God he is trying to blaspheme and defame any way he can. But you see, calvinists don’t really believe in an all knowing God or an all powerful God, if they did they would believe in a God with middle knowledge, and a God who’s capable of bestowing robust free will if he so desires.
God deciding the outcome of everything is not compatible with true free will, or him not being a tyrant who punishes people for things that he forced them to do or be. EITHER we have free will, *OR* God determines the outcome of every little tiddle (not a false dichotomy, an actual one). Understanding the difference between God KNOWING the outcome and planning based on that, and CAUSING every little outcome, is the key to avoiding SO MANY doctrinal traps. God KNOWS, and sets HIS pieces in motion according to the outcomes of our freewill, which he KNOWS the choices of, not CAUSES the choices of. PLEASE STOP WORSHIPING SATAN SERPENT SEEDERS AND CALVINISTS. Calvinism is reprobate. TULIP is reprobate. John Calvin is reprobate. 5 point theology is reprobate.
I find calvinists to be some of the most close minded of those caught up in false doctrine. They tend to refuse to even consider the hypothetical possibility that they’re mistaken about anything doctrinal. Which means they shirk the advice of scripture to study to find yourself approved. You have to question what you believe, if you do not, you’re being intellectually dishonest with yourself. Many calvinist false teachers teach their flock that questioning your doctrine, is tantamount to willingly giving up your faith. This is a satanic lie. You need to be studying to find yourself approved before The Most High.
Its so annoying when you point out to a calvinist they worship a god that is the author of sin, a being that desires evil to take place, forces people to commit evil and then gets mad about it after, and having his own will conflict with his own will, a being that could only be Ha’Shatan, the author of confusion. And they will say stuff like “god does not force anyone to sin, we all have free will within our nature, its just that everyone’s nature is sinful, and we can only sin by our nature” and then you point out “ok, so who gave us that nature of inevitable sin? did god? ok, so that STILL makes him the author of evil.” and they still don’t get it. If god WANTS you to have a nature that only allows for you to sin, then GOD WANTS YOU TO SIN. God is not retarded. He knows if he gives you a nature that only allows for sin, he is forcing you to sin by consequence. This is a simple application of the distributive property of language. God does NOT desire us to have a nature that makes sin inevitable. We DO INDEED have that nature, based on our flesh, but that is not what god WANTS for us. God allows things to occur which he does not want to occur, we know that explicitly from scripture, and its in no way what so ever mutually exclusive with God’s TRUE sovereignty. Calvinists CONSTANTLY confuse something happening because God allows it, and something happening because God WILLS it. God does not will everything he allows to pass. And in no way what so ever, not even one slight iota, does this impugn or denigrate his sovereignty. BY HIS SOVEREIGNTY HE DECLARED THIS TO BE THE WAY IT IS. BY HIS SOVEREIGNTY HE GAVE US *TRUE* FREE WILL, AND ONLY THROUGH HIS SOVEREIGNTY DO WE CONTINUE, FROM EACH MOMENT TO THE NEXT, STILL IN POSSESSION OF OUR FREE WILL. And no, salvation being a dance that God leads, that you need to be responsive to (simply an analogy, take issue with it at your own pedantic peril), is NOT saving one’s self, not even close. Again, you’re exercising your free will by responding appropriately, and you only have your free will by the sovereignty of The Father, so when you exercise your free will, it is a testament to God’s sovereignty. And what you’re responding to was offered to you based on mercy and grace, not on you earning it. And still in this scenario I am describing, there is ZERO salvation without God. Yes, absolutely, you can reject salvation. No, accepting it does not make the salvific act yours. When you receive a gift you don’t deserve, and you accept it, does that then make you the gift giver? NOPE. But that is EXACTLY what calvinists are saying, when they claim that belief in the ability to refuse salvation means we’re our own saviors. They’re saying if you have the option to turn down a gift, that makes you the gift giver. THAT IS LUDICROUS, BUT IT IS ALSO NOT A STRAW MAN OF THEIR POSITION DESPITE THEM SAYING IT IS. Its just that they refuse to accept unintentional, yet logically inescapable, implications of their doctrine. They do not perform the due diligence needed for critical self examination when it comes to calvinistic doctrine, instead they’re inculcated with the belief that studying pro-calvinism theologians is tantamount to critically examining it. Just because what I am saying they do is an elucidating perspective on their beliefs that they themselves would never word the way I am from their own confused perspective, does NOT in any way mean that they don’t believe that, or that I am misrepresenting what calvinists in fact DO BELIEVE. If you do not understand the you can believe Y and think you believe X, you do not understand one lick of scripture or self deception. Not ONE LICK.
It is the calvinist’s game to misrepresent the anti-calvinist position, with unintended consequences and logically inescapable implications laid bare, as being misrepresentative of what calvinists teach. They employ the classic fallacy so many calvinists employ, equivocating what people say are the logically inescapable implications of calvinist theology, with what those critics say calvinists represent their own beliefs to be. This is the same fallacy we see atheists employ on a regular basis. “you’re not allowed to level any criticism against my views that I don’t already agree with, me being someone who already doesn’t see that criticism as valid (begging the question in the extreme), or you’re “misrepresenting” atheism”. That’s the same tactic calvinists constantly try to pull. But its not flying here.
Of course calvinists do not hold themselves to the same standards they hold critics of calvinism to. They will CONSISTENTLY make characterizations of other people’s views based not on how the proponent of that view would put it, but based instead of what the calvinist (sometimes incorrectly) sees to be the logically inescapable implications of the view that the proponent of the view doesn’t see or won’t admit to. But when people do that to calvinism, the go to calvinist response is to accuse the critic of being intellectually dishonest and arguing against a straw man. Even though the calvinist knows that the claim is not that calvinists explicitly teach X, and consciously espouse X, but that the claim is that calvinists, without realizing it, teach X even though they would very much like to see themselves as ideologically opposed to X, and that without realizing it, they’re espousing X EVEN THOUGH on a conscious level they want to oppose it. Its called an unintended consequence. It doesn’t matter if you like it, or want it to be true, it only matters if it is actually true. To parse out its truth, you certainly never resort to accusing someone of intellectual dishonesty for claiming the issue sticks, that’s begging the question about the issue they’re trying to raise. So the calvinist needs to debate how its true or not, using logic. Accusations and pathos are irrelevant.
If I give you a list of a million different sins you can commit, and you literally cannot commit any action what so ever that’s not on the list, and then you commit an action on the list of the only action’s you may POSSIBLY commit, and then I punish you for sinning, is that justice? I limited you to that action. Does the fact that I gave you a million different options on how to sin take away from the fact that I am only giving you the option to sin? If the only aspect of those million different options that matters is whether or not they’re a sin, and all million are a sin, how is that list any different than a ONE ITEM LIST THAT JUST HAS THE WORD “SIN” WRITTEN ON IT? Did you choose to sin, or did you make a choice among the only available options, which were all sins, that I forced upon you? If I punish you for sinning, am I not punishing you for what I chose to force upon you?
Its funny, calvinists constantly accuse anyone who delves deep enough into the fundamental logic of their beliefs to see that they worship satan, as themselves being satanists, or reprobate, or influenced by demons, or whatever dismissive pejorative with a paper thin veneer of piety they have handy. Here is the reason why: they PREsuppose the god of calvinism is the god of the bible. They take calvinism as presuppositional. Not the bible, not God’s existence, specifically calvinism. Whenever you point out anything that paints the god of CALVINISM as satan, they are incapable of not seeing that as you painting THE GOD OF THE BIBLE as satan, even though the whole point of what you’re saying, is that the god of calvinism is not the God of the bible. They have the same epistemic blinders on that neo-atheists do. They cannot even entertain a hypothetical thought exercise where they’re wrong, to examine other views within their own context, and instead keep shoehorning one item at a time from the opposing view, into the context of their OWN view, and then when it does not match up, acting like that refutes the opposing view. This is the sign of someone who’s not an earnest truth seeker going where ever the evidence takes them, but instead just trying to twist the evidence to confirm their preconceived notions. Its certainly a sign of someone who has not grasped epistemology or logic to such a degree that they should be parsing topics with overlap to calvinistic beliefs with authority opposed against other views they don’t even comprehend in the least.
The trick of calvinism is to make you think unless you see God from a calvinist perspective, you don’t truly love him, aren’t truly obedient to him, refuse to accept his sovereignty, etc, and every single calvinist has fallen for it, including John Calvin (presumably, unless he was a willful deciever, that’s a possibility too).
If calvinism is true, is God evil? (by his own standards, not mine, to reiterate that point for the 10th time)
If it is, yes he is (again, NOT by my own personal, or fleshly desired, but by the values of God as we learn them in scripture. You see, I am using presuppositional apologetics to internally examine the worldview of calvinism for INTERNAL contradiction). The issue is not one which can be addressed by appealing to calvinists claims, in context of how they see them, with only the logically inescapable consequences of their position, which they actually concede, being mentioned or considered admissible. The issue is that, despite what calvinists confusedly think about their doctrine, the logically inescapable implications of it are that God is the author of sin, and the being who wills sin to occur (which is of course nonsensical, because sin by its nature is something which is against God’s will). Calvinists constantly confuse things which God wills to happen, with things God allows to happen even though its against his will (something he does as a SOVEREIGN ACT, he decides, as sovereign over all, to ALLOW IT, if he weren’t sovereign, he wouldn’t be ABLE to “allow” it, it wouldn’t be up to him to “allow”).
Sadly, calvinists are very intellectually lost on matters of sovereignty. FULL, robust free will is in no way what so ever mutually exclusive or incompatible with FULL, robust sovereignty of God, because to reiterate, only through his sovereignty do we have free will to begin with, and only through his sovereignty do we continue to at every moment. People doing things against God’s will is not impugning God’s sovereignty, we have the option to shirk his will BECAUSE OF his sovereignty. Him not being able to bestow true choice to his creations would be placing arbitrary limitations upon God, and taking away from his glory, power, and sovereignty. Omnipotence is the ability to do all that power can do. If you’re saying that earthly rulers can relinquish a portion of their sovereignty to someone else, but God cannot, then you’re definitely limiting God bigtime. Its not glorious to have everything happen exactly as you plan it, because you micro manage every iota of existence and force it to happen. Its glorious when every being in the universe can rail against your plans, and yet still they go off without a hitch. And no, the question does not inherently put God to the test, it holds God to his own standards. Or do you not think self contradiction is the bedrock of refutation? The argument does not actually seek to establish that God is evil if calvinism is true, the argument seeks to refute calvinism by demonstrating the TRUTH that its logically inescapable implication is that god is evil, BY HIS OWN STANDARDS, which is itself an impossibility, and so therefore, calvinism must be false. Can God will something to occur, which is against his will? No. That is nonsensical. That is mysticism, paganism, mumbo jumbo new ager theosophy nonsense. That is not the God of truth, who says let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no. But that IS what calvinism teaches.
Calvinism says that God does not force people to sin, and that we do have free will, its just that our free will is limited by our nature, and our nature is sinful. But God gave us our nature, so then he still made us sin. Our nature determines our eternal fate, of heaven or hell, according to calvinism. Some will be given a new nature, and rewarded for God forcing them to be righteous. Some will keep the initial sinful nature God gave them, and will be punished for God forcing them to be unrighteous. Both are not based on the choices the person made, but instead are based on an arbitrary decision (arbitrariness as opposed to having standards, such as our choices). No calling that decision arbitrary is not judging God by my own personal, fallen fleshly desires. Its judging the false god of calvinism by the standards of justice of The True God of the bible. This is not to say that man can save himself by works, not at all, works do not warrant salvation, they are the fruit of salvation. But repentance is something which is catalyzed by God, and responded to by the receiver of the holy spirit, which is NOT irresistible, as I have previously discussed.
God can allow beings to do things which he prefers they not do, and have his plans come to fruition DESPITE, but not because of, said disobedience and sin. Because of how glorious a God he is.
The god of calvinism:
Willed the fall.
Willed mankind’s inherently sinful state.
Desires some to not be saved (I am not unfamiliar with calvinist’s claims of different types of grace etc etc, so that he sorta kinda desires them to be saved but not enough for it to happen, blah blah, its just all nonsense.)
Says its useless to repent, because your fate is sealed no matter what you do. Yet tells people to repent anyway. Since he is the one that 100% makes the repentance occur, with no part of it being the sinner, he’s talking to himself, every time God tells someone in the bible to “repent!” or in fact every time he tells anyone to do anything, he’s merely talking to himself, telling himself to tug that particular puppet’s strings in a way that causes them to do those things. He calls people to repent, knowing they cannot. He exhorts them to use a free will he did not give them.
Punishes beings with eternal torment, for things he forced them to do
Saying God is allowing satan to do something, and saying that God is making satan do everything he does, are two separate and distinct claims. One is compatible with the biblical concept of justice, one is not. When God gives a being, Satan, mankind, or whoever, free will, he does not lose his sovereignty, for it is only through his sovereignty that they have said free will. Free will is dependent upon God’s sovereignty, not mutually exclusive with it, as many would confusedly say.
Calvinism confuses a great many matters. It turns God into the author of sin, it confuses the difference between God’s plans coming to fruition DESPITE sin, with God’s plans coming to fruition, THROUGH sin. Which, besides making him the author of evil and the one who caused the fall, makes him less glorious, because plans which can withstand attack are more amazing than plans which would fall apart if any little thing did not go directly according to them. Free will is not mutually exclusive with God’s sovereignty, it is a testament to it. Only through God’s divine decree do we have free will, and it only continues because he allows it to continue. In no way what so ever does full free will impugn God’s sovereignty at all. No being he has given free will to has the power to use their will to over turn God’s will. If it sounds like I am repeatedly reiterating myself, that’s not by accident, and not for nothing. When someone has heard LIES AND FALLACIES repeated ad nauseum, it takes a little repetition to break through the barriers those lies being heard repeated have erected between your mind, and the truth.
Which is more glorious? A God who’s will be done no matter what, despite the free will of countless numbers of other beings being opposed to it, or a god who’s plan only comes to fruition because every little droplet throughout all of existence and history has been micromanaged by him to do so, like puppets at the end of strings? I was a calvinist for years before I started to see through the deception. Once you truly study it (and unless you’re earnestly exploring the possibility of it being a false teaching, you’re not truly studying it), you realize its actually based on gnosticism, luciferianism, etc. Not scripture. Its part of the great apostasy. I pray you do not get pulled further into that snake pit, although for all I know you’ve already hit rock bottom in it. Calvinism is pretty low in that pit.
Election is not mutually exclusive with my position in the least. The bible does not teach a mutual exclusivity between the two, only calvinist theologians do. So if you think there’s a mutual exclusivity there, its clear who your chief teacher is (and we can’t serve two masters). God exists outside of time, and can know what we will freely choose, and elect accordingly. Calvinists misunderstand election, its not arbitrary, and neither is God (saying that he’s not arbitrary is also not at all at odds with scriptures talking about the potter making vessels of clay for different purposes). Saying he is, is not glorifying him. (yes I know you would not say he’s arbitrary in his election, I am saying those are the logically inescapable implications of your doctrine that you’re blind to)
Its funny though because most of the time, what I get from calvinists in response to my position on their beliefs is something along the lines of: “he’s wrong because if he were right, this other doctrine we also believe would be wrong” (and the “other doctrine” either actually is wrong as well, or it is not actually incompatible with my position/dependent upon calvinism the way they think it is)
According to Calvinism, God created a universe full of evil and sin, because doing other wise would have brought God less joy. A world full of sin, maximizes the god of calvinism’s joy. Let that sink in. Who does that sound like?
(On a side note: People need to see Romans 13, and related scriptures, in the same light as they see Satan being the ruler of the world. Just because God allows something, does not mean he approves of it or wills it to take place. Make sure you take the calvinism out of your interpretation of romans 13 (and if you’re doing it there, make sure you go ahead and take the calvinism out of your everything else too lol). Then there’s the issue of what “authorities” are being referred to. Are they state authorities? “That brings us back to Romans 13. We can easily resolve our dilemma by looking at the original Greek. The word mentioned above — the one that signifies “government” — never once appears in this chapter. Rather, the “authorities” are social ones, such as parents, tutors (i.e., private teachers), owners of property, etc etc. IE the authorities that are actually explictly laid out and affirmed in scripture. Without the political government that the Bible proscribes, such “authorities” are essential for maintaining peace and order — and we as Christians are to respect them. For example, when I enter your home or business, I should honor your wishes while there; I may not trespass, and I certainly lack all authority for ordering you to swap your incandescent bulbs for CFLs or compelling you to buy a permit before you add another room.)
Calvinists always act like the basis for demonstrating that someone does not understand predestination, foreknowledge, etc, is that they do not accept the calvinist view of these things, IN A DEBATE ABOUT CALVINISM. Begging the question in the extreme. When it comes to criticism of calvinism, calvinists tend to think the debate is about “how calvinists would phrase their own teachings”, that’s not what the debate is about. It doesn’t matter how calvinists characterize what they teach or believe, if it can be logically, and with scripture, shown to be that they think they believe one thing, but don’t realize they really believe another. Intent is irrelevant. Positions, truth claims, etc, all have logically inescapable implications, and those implications are ANYTHING BUT bound by the intent of the person holding said beliefs in question, unless the scope of the implication in question is intrinsically related to the intent of the person, which is not very often at all.
Calvinists “defend” calvinist doctrine through a series of kafkatraps, where denial of calvinism, automatically indicates one or more bad things about you, that render your criticism intrinsically “dishonest” and “dismiss-able without consideration”, and further “proves” calvinism as “true”. Again, those dishonest tactics won’t fly here. They get swatted down with big huge logical fly swatters. No emperor’s new clothes type arguments allowed in a rational, *EARNEST* discussion. Thanks.
Lastly, I would like to address the linguistic contortionists who try to act like inventing a term that embraces a contradiction somehow alleviates the view in question from resolving said internal contradiction. You can’t just arbitrarily invent theological terms to “deal with” any issue someone raises about internal inconsistencies in your position. “Owning it” does nothing to resolve a logical problem with your position. That’s all inventing a term for it is, its just “owning it”, its still a contradiction. When calvinists try to arbitrarily assert different aspects of God’s will, that can come into REAL conflict with each other in the REAL ACTUALIZED WORLD, they’re showing that their PRIME presupposition is calvinism, and they’re shoehorning the bible to fit. Passive or active decrees or foreordinations, ascribing an arbitrary chronological order to God’s decrees (Supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism), based around giving calvinism the disguise of scriptural basis, etc. These things are the UNSCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION for the satanic teachings of calvinism. They’re not even a LOGICAL foundation. They’re utterly arbitrary, counter-intuitive, and absolutely outside the scope of all human knowledge and experience, hence quantifying an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof, of which the calvinists simply do not have. And quite frankly, the calvinist predilection to play word games about criticism of calvinism being “man centered”, is VERY DISHONEST. THEY KNOW ON A CERTAIN LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAT THEY’RE PLAYING DISHONEST WORD GAMES WHEN THEY DO THIS. I say “GOD gave man free will to choose, GOD gave man free will to choose, GOD gave man free will to choose”, and you say that I said “MAN has free will to choose to save himself, MAN has free will to choose to save himself, MAN has free will to choose to save himself.” I think your own reprobate mind is clouding the issue for you, because you’re artificially and dishonestly inserting the false emphasis, when the real emphasis is on God, and you KNOW that’s where it is, and FREELY CHOOSE to misrepresent it (I say misrepresent, because there’s zero logical basis for saying that one is the sequitur of the other, so you can’t be saying that its the unintended logical consequence of the anti-calvinism position, since you’ve yet to demonstrate that you even understand what that position even is in its own context)
So these many issues point, of course, to the logically inescapable implication of the calvinist doctrinal position being that god is the author of evil, and logical contradiction, he wills people to sin, sin being something which is against his will. He then punishes them, when he made them adhere to sin, and have no choice otherwise. The “god” of calvinism is Ha’Shatan. Period.