Another Example of a Dishonesty

Recently on a medley of Open Theist facebook pages, a man named McLoughlin has been asking questions and refusing to answer any. This is just another data point that the critics of Open Theists are disingenuous and do not answer questions, and are generally ungracious to other people’s positions.

McLoughlin [in response to someone else] You say that you see flawed thinking from me. Yet, you have not shown that flawed thinking.

Remember…..

If God always knew for certain that Jesus would die by Crucifixion, then He would have always known for certain that the Roman Empire would exist who would execute Jesus on a Cross.
April 16 at 6:22am

Chris Fisher The Bible presents the Crucifixion as an event that did not have to happen.In fact, you would be hard pressed to find one prophecy about it.

the crucifixion was not a fixed event
April 16 at 9:50am

Chris Fisher In response to the OP [a YouTube video]. This guy is not very interested in Biblical theology. He wants to engage in philosophical speculation. That is fine. But the Bible nowhere presents timelessness and a concept that was even entertained. Instead, presentism is the time philosophy of the Bible.

I will give one of countless verses to illustrate:

Gen 9:16 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”

God here says that He anticipates doing something in the future that will remind Him of the past.
presentism in the Bible
April 16 at 9:47am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I am not coming from a Calvinist position. I am not a Calvinist. I did refer to the above article and this is why I state this.

So, You are saying that God was not always certain that Jesus would be Crucified ?
April 16 at 9:54am

Chris Fisher Yeah, so let’s look at the evidence, we will start with a few of Jesus’ own quotes. Here is Jesus before he is arrested.

Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Does Jesus believe that he can pray to God and God would deliver him from the Romans? Is that something Jesus believes he can do?
April 16 at 9:57am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I am a person who wants to get to the nitty gritty straight away.

So, all I pretty much ask from people is that can simply answer the question.

So to just clarify with you and to make it clear ….

You are saying that God was not always certain that Jesus would be Crucified ?

Correct ?
April 16 at 10:00am

Chris Fisher Yes. I’ve said it a few times and posted an article I wrote saying that exact thing. The links are to my blog page.

[Edit] I direct you to my reply comment above where I write “The Bible presents the Crucifixion as an event that did not have to happen.” That is pretty clear, right? And then I link an article I wrote about it.
April 16 at 10:04am · Edited

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

Then the conclusion must be that God could never be certain that people would be saved nor that there will be a redeemed.
April 16 at 10:03am

Chris Fisher No, that is a stupid conclusion.
April 16 at 10:04am

Chris Fisher But anyways, howabout now we deal with the Biblical evidence I present that the crucifixion did not have to happen. I posit that you want to use the Morallistic Fallacy to drive your beliefs.
April 16 at 10:05am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

Then God must have always been certain that Jesus would die to save and redeem people.
April 16 at 10:06am

Chris Fisher Nope.
April 16 at 10:06am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

Then the conclusion must be that God cannot be certain that people will be saved nor that there will be a redeemed.
April 16 at 10:07am

Chris Fisher Nope. Howabout we stick to the Bible instead of philosophical speculation?
April 16 at 10:07am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

How about I question you to expose your contradictions ?
Like · Reply · April 16 at 10:07am
Chris Fisher
Chris Fisher I’ve answered your questions and you have not answered any of mine, and I am really not interested in wild speculation. So maybe you can post Bible verses that back up your wild speculation.We can start talking about the Bible.
Like · Reply · 1 · April 16 at 10:09am
Chris Fisher
Chris Fisher I’m willing to answer a one for one question, even your questions with wild speculation, if you just answer my questions. Here is my question again:

Yeah, so let’s look at the evidence, we will start with a few of Jesus’ own quotes. Here is Jesus before he is arrested.

Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Does Jesus believe that he can pray to God and God would deliver him from the Romans? Is that something Jesus believes he can do?

It is a “yes” or “no” question.
Like · Reply · April 16 at 10:10am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I am not speculating. I am sticking to reason and logic.

I wrote….

” You are saying that God was not always certain that Jesus would be Crucified ? ”

Correct ?

You answered

// Yes. //

From there I said…

” Then the conclusion must be that God could never be certain that people would be saved nor that there will be a redeemed. ”

You answered…

// Nope //

You are in essence contradicting yourself.

It is one or the other. Which one is it ?
April 16 at 10:14am

Chris Fisher I have an answer for your question, but I am working for a one-for-one ratio here. I want a dialogue. I’ve answered one of your questions, you get to answer one of mine. It is not hard. Here, copy and paste one of these two:

Yes
No

Here is Jesus before he is arrested.

Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Does Jesus believe that he can pray to God and God would deliver him from the Romans? Is that something Jesus believes he can do?
April 16 at 10:17am · Edited

Chris Fisher So, type two letters (no) or three letters (yes), hit enter. Then magically, you will also receive an answer to your latest question. Come on, I know you can do it.
April 16 at 10:24am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I am not at all interested in discussing Bible passages. Why ??

Because people ( Both Calvinists and Open Theists ) try to rope me in and try and force me to accept their interpretation of the Bible.

Both groups can’t be right ! There is a problem of interpretation, and assumptions, and presuppositions before going to the text. In other words, there is a problem of hermeneutics.

It is not just a simple matter of going to the text and saying…

” See… We are right and the other group is wrong”

If a person is truly honest regarding their theological position, then they will submit it to close scrutiny and questioning. If they are not honest, then they will try to avoid and divert.
April 16 at 10:28am · Edited

Chris Fisher Alright, I am changing my question slightly to a reading comprehension question. Now you don’t even have to tell us what you believe about the verse, only speculate what an educated reader would believe.

If I were to bring this verse to an average high school student with adequate reading comprehension skills how would they answer the question:

Here is Jesus before he is arrested.

Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

Does Jesus believe that he can pray to God and God would deliver him from the Romans? Is that something Jesus believes he can do?
April 16 at 10:28am

Chris Fisher Here is for your copy and paste needs:

1. An educated reader would read this verse as saying that Jesus believes God would delivery him from the Romans, if he so wished.

2. An educated reader would not read this verse as saying that Jesus believes God would delivery him from the Romans, if he so wished.
April 16 at 10:31am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

You are trying to hijack my thread. You are avoiding answering my questions, which are in accordance with the OP.

You can of course make your own OP and have people respond to you but you show yourself as being dishonest when you avoid, and divert and try and hijack this thread.
April 16 at 10:32am

Chris Fisher Don’t be silly. Your entire thread is on if the crucifixion is necessary, and I am providing hard evidence IN THE BIBLE that this is the case. You, on the other hand, want to avoid the Bible at all costs. It is crazy to me. You will not answer a simple yes or no question about reading comprehension on a verse that directly relates to your assertions.
April 16 at 10:34am

Chris Fisher And, you engage in the moralistic fallacy in ALL your arguments.
April 16 at 10:35am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I am not at all interested in discussing bible passages. I have explained to you very clearly why. If you continue to push your agenda on my thread, then I will block you. It is no skin off my nose.
April 16 at 10:36am

Chris Fisher That’s a keeper:
April 16 at 10:39am

Chris Fisher Yeah, good luck with your thread, mate.
April 16 at 10:39am

McLoughlin Chris Fisher

I won’t say good luck to you with your heresy of Open Theism.
April 16 at 10:40am · Edited

4 comments

    1. Yeah, he wasn’t interested in dialogue or Biblical evidence. There was a lot of projecting on his part, he would refuse to answer questions while at the same time accusing others of not answering questions.

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